Curse

upier · Dec 23, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

10 times more doesn't make sense.

Okay, say you want an Elemental Sword. It's usually 100k + 1-10 ecto, depending on quality. You get the req9, but empty or with crappy inscription.

You would need 1mln gold worth points to get it via PvP rewards.

While a better way is to get the sword even overpriced in PvE. 100k + 20e, sounds realistic? That's 200k.

Then you buy 15^50 for 5k. +30hp is 4k, too.

That's 209k, 210k tops. And you just saved 790k.

Only one one character. If you delete it, boom, you lost points.

I think the point of this thread is - PvP Reward Points are useless.

I didn't give you a multiple-choice answer.
You need to consider all those issues and how each of them raises the price further.

The prices makes sense - what you are arguing is that you don't consider it to be worth it. Neither do I.
But that's really not the point, now is it?

Abedeus · Dec 23, 2008, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Gah... Please, don't troll.

Unless you enjoy spending hundreds of thousands of gold too much for NO reason, that is.

Yarly · Dec 23, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Gah... Please, don't troll.

Too late for that..

upier · Dec 23, 2008, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Gah... Please, don't troll.

Unless you enjoy spending hundreds of thousands of gold too much for NO reason, that is.

Please share with me what is the PvE price of being able to craft Crystalline Swords?
Or weapons that only come as greens and you are able to craft them with the stats of choice?

What you are arguing is that (to exemplify) because max swords do 15-22 damage - they should all be sold for the price that the cheapest one of them is being sold for. You just can not have such a simplified look at this issue.
We are dealing with very high-end luxury items here. And the price matches that.

Abedeus · Dec 23, 2008, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Gah. You TOTALLY MISS THE POINT. Totally. You couldn't get it more wrong.

Just stop, I'm embarassed for both of us.

upier · Dec 23, 2008, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Gah. You TOTALLY MISS THE POINT. Totally. You couldn't get it more wrong.

Just stop, I'm embarassed for both of us.

The please share it with me:
Please tell me what about:
- skins being PvE rewards, thus obtaining them in PvP means you are bound to overpay them
- the fact that you aren't limited by supply and demand
- the fact that the price of the luxury items is higher because you obtain the basic ones for free
- and the fact that you are able to craft weapons with skin and stats combos that do not exists in PvE
does not justify pushing the price into the sky?

The Blade From Hell · Dec 23, 2008, 07:05 PM // 19:05

@ Orange Milk this is in no way a QQ seeing as how he stated he already has the tiers unlocked but the fact that this is unaccesible to most people because rp are hard enough to get as it is never mind needing thousands to get to be ABLE to buy something good.
As my using my own advice, u stated something others have stated about 1000 times so ur post still proves useless lol.

I personally think the prices are fine since once you unlock a tier you can have anything you want on the spot for sometimes even cheaper than in pve. If the tier requirements were lowered then it was just be stupid getting good items on demand cheap and having unlock tiers cheap. System is fine as it is, just give the eotn stuff back and its cool.

Abedeus · Dec 23, 2008, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

- skins being PvE rewards, thus obtaining them in PvP means you are bound to overpay them

Not all skins are only PvE rewards, do not exaggerate. The point is - if you can get something in PvE for less than 200k, why you must pay 5 time more in PvP? I mean, what's the point in spending 1mln gold in Reward Points if you can get five times more if you convert them to ZKeys?

Quote:

- the fact that you aren't limited by supply and demand

You can overcome that by paying more than it's sane for an item. For example, you can win all bids if you pay twice as much as the highest bidder. Which, with a lot of zkeys, you can, and will be cheaper than Reward Points.

Quote:

-You can craft the weapons with any kind of stats.

Only on one character, so making Fire Magic wand or staff on a Monk is useless.

Quote:

- the fact that the price of the luxury items is higher because you obtain the basic ones for free

You don't get basic ones for free. They cost 10 reward points, which is 10k per skin.

Quote:

- and the fact that you are able to craft weapons with skin and stats combos that do not exists in PvE
does not justify pushing the price into the sky?

Only on one character, customised. What do you mean "skin and stats that don't exist in PvE"? Can you get a -2 while enchanted AND -2 while hexed shield in PvP? Nope.

upier · Dec 23, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Not all skins are only PvE rewards, do not exaggerate. The point is - if you can get something in PvE for less than 200k, why you must pay 5 time more in PvP? I mean, what's the point in spending 1mln gold in Reward Points if you can get five times more if you convert them to ZKeys?

Skins are PvE rewards because there isn't much point to PvE outside of looking pretty. FoW armour will serve as nicely in PvP as the free PvP core armour. The same thing with a CS vs the free PvP sword.
And it's because you are able to obtain PvE rewards without doing PvE - it only makes sense you are overpaying them!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

You can overcome that by paying more than it's sane for an item. For example, you can win all bids if you pay twice as much as the highest bidder. Which, with a lot of zkeys, you can, and will be cheaper than Reward Points.

You can only buy it if somebody is selling it.
If no-one is selling - you can always get a PvP version of the item you want. In PvE, you need to get lucky or find someone that is selling it. That's what I meant by "crafting CSs". You are able to completely bypass supply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Only on one character, so making Fire Magic wand or staff on a Monk is useless.
Only on one character, customised. What do you mean "skin and stats that don't exist in PvE"? Can you get a -2 while enchanted AND -2 while hexed shield in PvP? Nope.

Are you telling me that you can ONLY craft a Willcrusher-skinned staff with a req. 9 in dom or can you actually craft it as a prot staff?
You can only get the Willy-skin in PvE as a dom green. In PvP - you can do whatever you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

You don't get basic ones for free. They cost 10 reward points, which is 10k per skin.

My apologies.
I meant the 5ish free armour sets that are available to anyone that wants to make a PvP character. It should be the "core" ones and not the "basic" ones.
And because you get those for free - and by looking beyond them you are ONLY getting them because of luxury - you're bound to pay more compared to PvE where you need to also buy the core set.

Orange Milk · Dec 23, 2008, 07:58 PM // 19:58

@The Blade From Hell

RP's are not hard to get, I myself curently have over 300 that I could give a shit about sitting on my account and I've never even finished top 30 in a Monthly GvG or ever even entered a HvH Monthly.

the OP is not saying they are hard to get, he's saying they are more valuable in ZKey form than Exotic unlock form and he would like them scaled out more evenly. THough if he really does think they are hard to get then he really isn't trying at all to earn any.

The Blade From Hell · Dec 23, 2008, 08:14 PM // 20:14

300 is nothing compared to the 2500 needed to unlock the tiers? And im pretty sure it is hard to get rp, we have the faction for the keys and rp for the armor unless you already have a decked out pve one. The only thing needed to create the balance is giving us eotn items or else making a pvp character has no point if your going to miss out on half the crap.

Abedeus · Dec 23, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

The main problem is that Reward Points don't UNLOCK those items for your account.
Or a profession.

They unlock ONLY for one character. One. Nobody else. And if you want a Fancy Item for your Warrior, you must buy those basic ones again, even though your Monk has all Exotic ones.

Quote:

Skins are PvE rewards because there isn't much point to PvE outside of looking pretty. FoW armour will serve as nicely in PvP as the free PvP core armour. The same thing with a CS vs the free PvP sword.
And it's because you are able to obtain PvE rewards without doing PvE - it only makes sense you are overpaying them!

What is stopping you from using Reward Points to get ZKeys, ZKeys to cash and cash to money again?

Quote:

You can only buy it if somebody is selling it.
If no-one is selling - you can always get a PvP version of the item you want. In PvE, you need to get lucky or find someone that is selling it. That's what I meant by "crafting CSs". You are able to completely bypass supply.

You can only get reward points if you have people to play against. If you don't have people to play against, you can't get reward points. It's not like Faction that can be Zaishen farmed or HB'd. Same logic.

Quote:

Are you telling me that you can ONLY craft a Willcrusher-skinned staff with a req. 9 in dom or can you actually craft it as a prot staff?
You can only get the Willy-skin in PvE as a dom green. In PvP - you can do whatever you want.

Well, if you choose to get that staff on your Mesmer, you can't craft it as a Prot Staff. Well, you can, but you will use it only on your Mesmer. Your monk can't re-craft it as a Prot Staff. And vice versa. Again, this is what's bad.

Quote:

And because you get those for free - and by looking beyond them you are ONLY getting them because of luxury - you're bound to pay more compared to PvE where you need to also buy the core set

I don't get it - on one thread, if I recall, you agreed with me that 5k Kurz/Lux faction for Amber/Jade is too much compared to other rewards. Yet here you are saying something opposite on the exact thing.

It's cheaper and easier and less troublesome to get ZKeys than use Reward Points for actual PvP Rewards.

Dmitri3 · Dec 23, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Bah, /signed for reworking. For some people, well put. For others, nothing to say to you.

How the system is currently working, it's better to sell your RP's and buy a req 8 or 7 instead, same skin, same money.

Um Yeah · Dec 23, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

The main problem is that Reward Points don't UNLOCK those items for your account.
Or a profession.

They unlock ONLY for one character. One. Nobody else. And if you want a Fancy Item for your Warrior, you must buy those basic ones again, even though your Monk has all Exotic ones.

No, that's not how the system works. Stop spouting misinformation because you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Unlocking a basic or fancy item on one character contributes to the account's total unlocked. Yes, you only upgrade one weapon, but it can be easily given to others. Second of all, you aren't spending money to unlock skins, so this entire thread is completely RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING pointless. You can't say that just because you could be getting money for your RP means that RP spent on something else = spent money. You're not spending money. It's the player's choice what he/she wants to do with RP and honestly, most people have realized that it's better to spend RP on zkeys and cash in to buy whatever weapons they want for their pve or pvp chars. The only reason to spend RP on unlocks is really for armor. Maybe the system needs a rework, but the basis for the OP's opinion is completely false and I doubt Anet's going to take the time to fix it now.

Abedeus · Dec 23, 2008, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Well then still it's sick. Even if it does count, you can unlock a given skin only on one character. I don't really know the details, since it's just pointless to buy skin with RP.

Also, RP = zkeys = money. Works the other way, basics of math.

I Ithorian I · Dec 23, 2008, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Um Yeah

No, that's not how the system works. Stop spouting misinformation because you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Unlocking a basic or fancy item on one character contributes to the account's total unlocked. Yes, you only upgrade one weapon, but it can be easily given to others. Second of all, you aren't spending money to unlock skins, so this entire thread is completely RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING pointless. You can't say that just because you could be getting money for your RP means that RP spent on something else = spent money. You're not spending money. It's the player's choice what he/she wants to do with RP and honestly, most people have realized that it's better to spend RP on zkeys and cash in to buy whatever weapons they want for their pve or pvp chars. The only reason to spend RP on unlocks is really for armor. Maybe the system needs a rework, but the basis for the OP's opinion is completely false and I doubt Anet's going to take the time to fix it now.

Ok , I think alot of people are completetly missing the point here - or just simply cant read - or just wanting to argue for the sake of arguing.

If the current system , zkeys and all was implemented from the start - there would be ALOT of angry people asking for this rework of the system , as I clearly outlined the cost and scale of unlocking these tiers does not make any logical sense , previously it did make sense - because through lack of better option you HAD to spend your faction on these unlocks, This is how myself and everyone else did it.

I really do find it quite amusing that people are trying to justify spending there faction on unlocks (when there was nothing else to spend them on) as an arguement.

I can guarentee if you had the choice back then between 2.5 Million Gold or exotic unlocks for PvP , you would be agreeing with the facts and not disputing this but encouraging it.

Its a selfish and very immature outlook alot of you guys have and this clearly wont go anywhere - my post was intended offer a solution to make this system more accessible and ive said my piece so i'll leave it at that.

The Blade From Hell · Dec 23, 2008, 10:14 PM // 22:14

For that matter you can transfer skins from different chars, you just cant change the attribute that skin is linked to which is just like pve and perfectly reasonable.

upier · Dec 23, 2008, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

The main problem is that Reward Points don't UNLOCK those items for your account.
Or a profession.

They unlock ONLY for one character. One. Nobody else. And if you want a Fancy Item for your Warrior, you must buy those basic ones again, even though your Monk has all Exotic ones.

Buy any set of armour in PvE.
Do all your guys have access to it or just the guy that bought it?
It's the same thing. Instead of being forced to create a PvE character and needing to dash though chapters - you are given the option to just create a PvP guy and keep him around.
It's a bonus for the people who hate PvE. Luxury.
And you end up paying massively for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

What is stopping you from using Reward Points to get ZKeys, ZKeys to cash and cash to money again?

I don't see the connection with what I said and this.
Elaborate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

You can only get reward points if you have people to play against. If you don't have people to play against, you can't get reward points. It's not like Faction that can be Zaishen farmed or HB'd. Same logic.

What is easier and more likely to obtain/have it drop?
A req 9 Crystalline Sword or RPs?
Seriously.
This gives you the option to craft a few of the rarest weapons in the game. You SHOULD be paying for that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Well, if you choose to get that staff on your Mesmer, you can't craft it as a Prot Staff. Well, you can, but you will use it only on your Mesmer. Your monk can't re-craft it as a Prot Staff. And vice versa. Again, this is what's bad.

This has no relevance.
You can't obtain a Willy-skinned non-green staff in PvE.
You can in PvP - and you are paying extra for it.

Because you have access to this sort of customization - you should be paying extra.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

I don't get it - on one thread, if I recall, you agreed with me that 5k Kurz/Lux faction for Amber/Jade is too much compared to other rewards. Yet here you are saying something opposite on the exact thing.

How am I saying the opposite? I actually don't see how those two things are connected.
In PvE you are paying for everything. Skills, armours, weapons.
In PvP you don't need to pay for everything. The things that make you competitive are for free. Core weapons, armours ... dye even!
If you decide to pay for luxury items - it makes much more sense that the items are cheaper in PvE. Because you had to pay for the core sets also.
Whereas in PvP - where the core things are free - it makes sense to charge as much as possible for the luxury.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

It's cheaper and easier and less troublesome to get ZKeys than use Reward Points for actual PvP Rewards.

Of course.
But that's really not the question. If you are obtaining pretty skins through the PvP reward system - you are opting for luxury.
And that has it's price.

Abedeus · Dec 24, 2008, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

I don't see the connection with what I said and this.
Elaborate.

If you can't comprehend what I said, we have nothing to discuss here.

Quote:

What is easier and more likely to obtain/have it drop?
A req 9 Crystalline Sword or RPs?
Seriously.
This gives you the option to craft a few of the rarest weapons in the game. You SHOULD be paying for that.

Req 9 crystalline is by far easier. Because PvP Rewards give you a req 9 CUSTOMISED to your one character. To get ONE crystalline req 9 via reward points, you have to spend 10x50 + 20x50 + 300 reward points. That's 1800 points. That's 360 ZKeys. And that's 1800k. I think it's more than enough for a perfect req 9 crystalline.

Quote:

How am I saying the opposite? I actually don't see how those two things are connected.
In PvE you are paying for everything. Skills, armours, weapons.
In PvP you don't need to pay for everything. The things that make you competitive are for free. Core weapons, armours ... dye even!
If you decide to pay for luxury items - it makes much more sense that the items are cheaper in PvE. Because you had to pay for the core sets also.
Whereas in PvP - where the core things are free - it makes sense to charge as much as possible for the luxury.

And you find NOTHING wrong with overpricing the items so much it would be just cheaper to powerlevel a character to 20, buy normal and elite tomes and just play with PvE one?

Quote:

Of course.
But that's really not the question. If you are obtaining pretty skins through the PvP reward system - you are opting for luxury.
And that has it's price.

Same goes for Amber/Jade. You are obtaining them through PvP, where you already get Balthazar Faction AND title along the way. But it's easier by PvE.

Div · Dec 24, 2008, 08:27 AM // 08:27

The biggest problem is, once you get to exotic weapons, you need 300 RPs (aka 300k) to get a tormented weapon. I could easily buy a PvE version of that with this much gold.